The Journey so far…
It was the coldest night of the trip so far at Pangong Tso and I did not have a comfortable sleep both because of lack of space with three people sleeping on a small bed and anxiety surmounting with respect to what will happen on next day while traversing the route from Pangong Tso to Chusul to Hanle
Day 6 | Pangong Tso – Chusul – Tsaga – Loma – Hanle
Anyhow, after a bit of uncomfortable night I was awake at 4 AM and so was everyone around, with noises which can be heard of people talking to each other. We had plan to leave at 5 AM so as to cover the routes in the hopes that police posts will allow the tourists in early morning hours to cross over. There were loads of questions running in mind with mix feelings of what will happen if we are turned back from Chusul, what happens to Hanle then, which route will we take to return, the Erath – Harong Wetlands one OR will we be allowed on Mirpal Tso lake route to Mahe OR it will mean killing the day, etc.. Holding on to these anxious nerves somehow I left it on time to answer the anxiety within.
Everyone was up and ready in time, the dawn light was about to break, cold breeze was blowing gently and it was some sight to watch in the sky. Pangong Tso was just looking like another water body with no colours in it, though huge anyhow. The guys at Himalayan Wooden Cottages had our breakfast packed, prepared tea for us which was kind of a blessing in early morning cold conditions up there at Pangong Tso. We thanked them for their hospitality and offering good deal to us and above all preparing breakfast in such early cold morning conditions in Ladakh. With high hopes we left from Pangong Tso to Chusul – Hanle route. We had to leave behind Gagan because he was driving an Ertiga which might get stuck in between over the rough roads of Pangong Tso to Chusul route. Also, we left Bejamin too because as a foreigner he is not allowed beyond Merak village. We had tied up to meet again at Tso Moriri so that we can continue ahead together on Manali – Leh Highway 🙂
Chusul is about 45 odd KMs from Spangmik, Pangong Tso and in between there are few small villages as Man, Merak, Kakset Merak is where the first check-post lies and the first hurdle point for us. The sun had started to come out behind the mountains lying there across the other shore of Pangong Tso and rays were about to break out from there. It was some peaceful sight to witness. We crossed Man Village which was in complete silence and then we came to Merak village. The whole stretch of about 21 KMs from Spangmik to Man to Merak took about 1 Hr as there is literally no road but a dirt track running parallel to the shores of Pangong Tso and yeah the feeling of driving there is something cannot be written in words 🙂 🙂 …
Once we reached Merak, we submitted the permits at the check-post and thanking god, moved ahead with all protocols been followed. As the sun had come out, the colours in Pangong Tso had begun to appear as turquoise blue and we wanted to live the moment. After few KMs passing by Kakset village, the last village before Chusul, the Pangong Tso lakes turns into Tibet. We wanted to be there for sometime to see the colours in Pangong Tso as we did not see much last day too. So, we had a stoppage of about half an hour at the place where this heavenly lake leaves India and enters Tibet. We continued ahead and reached an unnamed pass which locals call Chusul Pass (7th pass of our trip) and there wasn’t much of an ascend too to reach it. The vistas around you becomes magical as you approach Chusul with wide marsh lands in foreground and small barren mountains in the backdrop. Soon, we reached Chusul and with all prayers followed the same protocol at check-post and got allowed to pass through in early hours of the day. One of the cars in which Lokesh and Shekhar was present, got confused in the route of exit from Chusul but after long long time they caught up with us ahead towards Tsaga. We were worried till the time they did not meet us at Tsaga.
After crossing Chusul, the landscapes is almost similar with you passing by Rohit Post, Rezang La War Memorial However, taking pictures or off-roading the track is strictly prohibited in this section of Ladakh being too close to LAC. In fact, photography is prohibited in whole inner line AFAIK as per official rules but this is too close to the LAC, so one must respect it to good extent (refrain from posting close up shots of hills on Internet in case you take them). A lot of anxiety had been settled after crossing Chusul but still Tsaga Post was also pending and we could be sent back from there too 😯 In between, we came across another unnamed lake which more or less looked like a glacial melt. It was far and we did not want to off road and end up in some mess, so we moved on towards Tsaga. The road conditions throughout are BAD, no roads, lots of pot holes and sand on the road at some sections. Small cars is big no over here.
Finally, ascended the hill to reach 8th mountains pass of our trip, Tsaga La at an altitude of 4635 Mtrs Clicked a shot from inside the car and quickly moved on. Descended into the Tsaga Village which is the major highlight of this route. It looks like a village guarded from outside world with mountains surrounded from all corners and a road leading towards Loma – Nyoma – Mahe on a flat ground from there. Completely magical or in dreams. We reached Tsaga check-post, submitted all our documents at the post and had some good moments with Jawans out there who were really happy and amused to see us there. One of them was from Faridabad and Jiwesh enjoyed some chats with him. After thanking them, crossing the post, we all congratulated each other in joy as plan was ON now 😀 😀 and asked Rigzin to stop the convoy near a water stream so that we can enjoy our breakfast for the day 😀 😀
We spent good 1 Hr at the breakfast point, took loads of pictures up there for the group, of vistas around and then as the tarred roads have appeared started towards Hanle through Loma Post. Again beyond Loma post towards Hanle, photography is prohibited and the Jawans check your cameras too but we had hidden them deep into the bags and respected the rule for not taking pictures of sensitive areas after entering the region towards Hanle. We cooked up a funny story why we wanted to visit Hanle and that’s an interesting one, though will narrate sometime later 😀 😀 … The roads till Hanle are well tarred and you see lots of Kiangs on the route to Hanle. We stopped took some pictures of them and continued the beautiful drive towards this amazing place on earth, Hanle. You can read my Travel Guide of Hanle at the link: Hanle Village | The Hidden Gems of Ladakh
From the Travel Guide itself:
Hanle in Changthang region of Ladakh is one of the most beautiful, enchanting, calm and soul loosing places in India. Hanle has a lovely Hanle Monastery offering some great aerial views of whole village that is a home of about 1000 people. The views from the top of monastery are just breath-taking. Hanle also houses an Indian Astronomical Observatory which is the world’s highest observatory in the world at a staggering height of 4500 Mtrs. The Hanle Observatory is operated by Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Bengaluru and has currently the currently the second highest optical telescope in the world, about 2.01 meters (6.5 feet) diameter.
The beauty in Hanle especially looking at the stars at night, is just jaw dropping and one has to visit it, to believe it !! Hanle is about 150 KMs from Mahe and the road runs through Nyoma and then Loma, where you need to pass the bridge on right that takes you to Hanle further 50 KMs ahead of Loma. We visited the Hanle Monastery first and spent good amount of time there. The monks there were so humble, soft spoken and prepared tea for us with biscuits. Some of the members did not come but they missed the hospitality offered to us by the good men there. After we had spent too much time up there, Rigzin came in search for us because others were feeling a bit restless 😀 😀 … As soon as we came down, there was a hunt for fuel/diesel and somehow Rigzin was able to manage it again in the village Khaldo, Hanle. We decided to first check in to Padma Homestay / Guest House but since it has limited rooms, so we had to divide our group where Tapan ji and his friend went to other home stay and we went to Padma Homestay run my Sonam and his family.
Padma Homestay in Hanle has been converted into a kind of decent guest house since my last visit and when I visited there this time, there were 4-5 rooms there with one room having attached bath and others sharing a common bath. A big room for dining. So, all in all it was quite a deal. You can read my review in the DwD Community link: Padma (Sonam’s) Guest House/Homestay, Hanle | Review
While delaying ourselves at Monastery, we lost one 4 bedded room to a family (the reader I met a day before at Pangong Tso) 🙁 🙁 … This would have meant that all of us could have been accommodated at one place only. But no worries we put 5 beds in one room, some had put mattresses on the floor itself, some slept in dining room. So, in all, we got ourselves forcefully accommodated in the limited rooms present there 😀 😀 After resting for couple of hours, we went out for the main highlight of this DoW Mega Meet in Ladakh, that is, to execute DoW Causes up there in Hanle. Believe me there is no better feeling to see smiles on the faces of little children up there in such remote places of Himalayas and we just witnessed same. Each one of us who participated almost had tears of joy seeing those smiles around us on the faces of little kids and you can check the detailed story at the link: DoW Cause | GYAAN 500 in action at Hanle, Ladakh
While we executed the DoW Cause | GYAAN 500 in primary school at Hanle, Shekhar contributed the medicines for DoW Cause | CURE 500 in a medical camp being run over there in local dispensary of the village. Again similar feelings to share. Everyone thanked each other for being part of such noble cause up there in remote Himalayas and we went back for our evening ride to Hanle Observatory We went inside up the observatory where they showed us the telescope and some videos/pictures taken from there. Some things were Greek to me, so I went outside. I had good long chat with Sonam (owner of the Padma Homestay) along with Rigzin about the place, how I want DoW Causes to spread in such remote areas and he was impressed too. He offered his kind support in any kind of support for this noble cause from his end, I thanked him and we went back to our abode for the night downhill.
The night again was cold at Hanle, tried some night photography of start trails but I am no good at it 😉 … Had a long chat with the DoW Reader staying over there with us, the vision of DwD Community and how I feel it could change the way we Travel to Himalayas. Then, we had decent dinner in the dinning room with everyone around, whole DoW group was enjoying the stay at Hanle, admiring the magical beauty of the place and then finally called the day off a bit early in hopes of exploring two unknown water bodies (lakes) next day…
Have you ever visited Hanle or done the route of Pangong Tso to Chusul – Loma? If yes, do share with me, how did you like the journey and what was the best part of it.
The Journey ahead…
49 Comments
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Hi DHEERAJ , I am planning to cover Hanle, so what route should I take to visit Hanle
1- Pangong to Hanle via Chusul
2- Leh to hanle Via mahe,Nyoma,Loma
for route 1st(Pangong to Hanle ) You have mentioned that ppl are sending back from chusul despite of having permit of Hanle(from LEH DC)
So in such case what would be the best route
If you really want to make it to Hanle and do not have buffer days to take the chance of direct route from Pangong Tso, then you can do it from Leh to Hanle, Hanle to Tso Moriri after coming back from Pangong Tso.
I am visiting Leh in June 2016 in a group (all 4X4 SUVs and Indian nationals) and now thinking of adding Hanle to our itinerary. From Pangong we plan to travel to Hanle and next day head to Tso Moriri via Chumur. Can you please help and confirm if we need ILP on this route. In your post above, you have mentioned that you had the permits. Can you please share the form (will be great if you have a sample) and what all supporting documents are needed. Also, it will be a great help if you could let me know what all places I have to mention in the ILP application so that I am not turned back from any of the checkpoints. If I am correct, I will have to submit form and documents to the commissioner office in Leh and its a 3 hr process, better to do it in the morning.
You will not get the permit via Chumur. For the whole process of getting the permit and form, refer:” Ladakh Inner Line Permit Updates on Process & Download Form
Thank you so much for your help. I hope we get the permit via Chushul to Hanle and hopefully we are permitted to cross over. It would have been great to go via Chumur but its ok if we have to go via Nyoma. Thank you once again!
Yeah, better try going via Nyoma.
We are planning to visit Ladakh in mid Sept(17th Sept) from Mumbai by road(Car is Honda Jazz) .
Is it possible to do below routes in Honda Jazz
1> Leh-Pangong
2>Leh-Nubra-Turtuk Village
3>Pangong -Tsomoriri(via Chulsul and Tsaga)
4>Leh-Manali late sept(from 29th Sept)
Priyanka, Honda Jazz will surely struggle on the route to Ladakh due to low ground clearance. Adding to it, in case something goes down, it will be extremely difficult to find a mechanic to fix it. regarding routes
1. Leh – Pangong Tso: Doable
2. Leh – Turtuk: Doable
3. Pangong Tso – Tso moriri: Not suggested
4. Leh – Manali: will be challenging
Thanks a lot Dheeraj for your reply.
For Pangong to Tsomoriri, what we have decided is we will go till Man Merak or khaltse and come back to Spagmnik for overnight stay. Is it doable with Jazz??
Cover the Nyoma Loma Hanle route when we visit Tsomoriri as the roads are good.
We will avoid Leh manali Highway and take Leh Srinagar Highway.
We will start on 17th Sept from Mumbai and come back by 2nd Oct.FYIP.
Priyanka, I hop you have read the link: FAQ | Can I do Leh – Ladakh / Spiti / Manali – Leh trip in Hatchback or Sedan? for more details.
If yes, and you feel comfortable, you can go for it. Nyoma – Loma is also fine.
Dheeraj ji, we 4 guys r planning to go ladakh in extreme winter season. Want to see frozen pangong lake. Pl tell us itinerary and time when we can go there.
Ashish, ideal time will be February for such an extreme adventure visit to Ladakh. However, itinerary depends upon the number of days you have in hand.
7-8 Days we have. But want to kw.. The route is clear or not. Or closed due to heavy snowfall. How can we go there?! Any specific route or permit need to have?
Ashish, 7-8 days are OK. You can stay at Tangste as some guest houses have heaters too there. Then next day you can visit Frozen Pangong Tso and return to Leh. Route only gets closed when it snowfall heavy on the days you want to travel. So, in case it starts heavily snowing the route will close for couple of days. That all depends upon the luck. However, in general all roads in Ladakh are accessible round the year.
I took the same route from Pangong to Chushul via the dirt track of Man-Merak and surely there is no road there. But the journey along the lake is surely that can be just felt and not described to its worth. But even though there was a check post at merak but no 1 was there so we just kept moving and totally depended upon GPS to guide through~!
Good to know that JKB. Actually even if there is no one at Checkpost, you must always put in the permits and documents along with vehicles number written at the back of the papers and push it inside the checkpost. This helps you in many ways, like any questions being asked who let you through and you did not escape the eye, in case you go into trouble there is a fact that you are out there and have not crossed the checkpost at other end, there is a record that you at least passed this checkpost, etc.. So, next time do remember to push your papers with required details into the checkpost even if you do not find any one in the morning 🙂
hi,
we are two friends and will be traveling to leh via srignar from chandigarh 27th july onwards.
we do have some anxieties and any kind of updates are really appreciated.
1. we are hearing a news that some union in ladakh has banned rented motorcycles from running leh. we will be traveling on 2 bikes rented from chandigarh.
2. as far as my knowledge we can go to pangong, hunder and tso-moriri without any innerline permits. we have plans to reach tso moriri from pangong via the tsaga la route. but from the posts i read that we may be sent back from chusul. in that case is there any other route, we have seen another one in the maps of leh at DOW, but for that also we have cross chusul.
if we are sent back then is it possible to reach tso moriri in one day via upshi ? plz update. and what are the chances that we may be allowed through chusul considering we are only two persons?
Prasun,
1. In general small groups are spared but yes the rule is present and applicable. To know more about this rule and present situation, please refer the link: Bikes Rented Outside Leh Banned in Ladakh
2. Yes, that direct route is not possible. If you are sent back from Chusul then you will not be able to reach Tso Moriri. In fact, it will be quite difficult even to reach back Leh. Even if you start from Pangong Tso and attempt Tso Moriri directly starting in day, then also it is quite difficult to reach Tso Moriri from Chumathang route in one day.
There is no cap on person, single persons are also sent back in the past.
Regards
Dheeraj
thanks a lot for the information Deeraj.
so what do you suggest ? can we get any update from pangong itself about the route condition of chusul ? from the maps i see there is another route chusul other than via tsaga. is that route good ?also someone posted that there are other routes bypassing the checkpost at chusul ? are there any other posts from where we might be sent back if we bypass the chusul post ?
thanks
Prasun, yes at Pangong Tso, camp site should be able to tell you about if the people are being sent back or not. Do not take the other route which goes from Kaksang La because that is very very desolated and no chances of help around. It might be possible route may be closed of some landslide too as it gets rare attention from army being an alternative route.
I cannot comment on the other routes, it is a highly sensitive area and we MUST respect it, all I will say. Yes, even Tsaga is there and Loma too in case going to Hanle else Loma should not be an issue.
in a summary our plan is as follows.
day 1 . chandigarh to patnitop/mansar more
day 2. mansar more to srinagar.
day 3. srinagar to kargil
day 4. kargil to leh.
day 5. rest and permits.
day 6. leh to nubra
day7. nubra to leh.
day8 leh to pangong.
day 9 pangong to tsomoriri via chusul
day 10. tso moriri to sarchu.
day 11. sarchu to manali
day 12. manali to chandigarh.
if we are not allowed through chusul what modification do you suggest in the itinerary.we can add a day if necessary.
Add a day as buffer in case you are sent back. Else you will have to drop Tso Moriri out of plan because in case you are sent back, reach Leh will eat up the whole day.
thanks a lot.
noted. we have a alternate route in case we are sent back. the whole trip will take 13 days. we have been to ladakh few years back. so we are planning on skipping nubra and adding hanle in that case. will do a day trip to khardungla.
how is the crowd at hanle ? will there be any issue regarding accommodation there ?
Prasun, at Hanle you can talk to Sonam ji, can refer DoW or my name. You can whatsapp him your details too. Check the review: Sonam Guest House Hanle
thank you so much for all the info.
do you recommend any places to stay in pangong tso and tso moriri ?
prasun, You can check the nice, preferred list of accommodation options in entire Leh – Ladakh (Leh, Nubra Valley, Pangong Tso, Tso Moriri) including moderate (cheap budget hotels as well) in the series of articles starting on the link here
dheeraj ji,
thank you for all the information.
we had a wonderful trip.
we had got the permits and the addl dist magistrate told that we can go through chusul, but we skiped that route and followed the normal route via sarchu as two persons on Tsaga route without backup is quite a gamble. :)…
thanks again.
Prasun glad that you had a wonderful trip to Ladakh. If possible, try and share your Himalayan experience with us at DoW – Himalayan Travel Community as Photo Tale or Travel Tale Or your reviews of the hotels/guest houses where you stayed or dhabhas/restaurants you ate food on your trip… All this might help others planning the similar trip too 🙂 🙂
And good decision I feel that you took.
Hi Dheeraj,
August 11th, 9 of us are reaching to Leh. 4 of us will be on bike and rest 5 folks on Car.
We will start our journey from 13th towards Nubra Valley.
13th Aug – Leh-Nubra
14th Aug – Nubra-Pangong
15th Aug – Pangong-Hanle
16th Aug – Hanle-Tsomiri
17th Aug – Tsomiri-Leh
This is how we have planned. Please advise how feasible is the iternary we have planned considering we have no mechanic, Petrol we will carry. We have a flight to catch on 18th august Morning 8am from Leh.
Regards,
Sourav
Sourav, this is too much to ask on bikes. Carry fuel for sure but do keep Plan B as well. Because first you need permits for this route and then even if you get the permits, you can be sent back from army checkpost at Chusul as mostly it happens for last couple of years.
Thanks Dheeraj for the suggestion.Yeah its really true, depending on our health we will decide on it
1)Plan B -> Skipping Hanle, and will follow Pangong to Tsomiri.
2)We have estimated it to be a journey of 1000km roundtrip in 5 days. Is the Estimation correct?
3)Do we need to carry brake and cluth wires and small toolkit? How healthy bikes can we expect in LEH for Rent, (planning for Royal Enfield)?
4)If sent back from Chusul, then what is the alternative route?
5)Also please advise how good is Camp Watermark in pangong?
Regards,
Sourav
Sourav, please find my replies below:
2. To get an idea of the routes in Ladakh along with distances, you can refer: DoW – Maps of Ladakh | Nubra Valley & Changthang. Keep in mind that, the remote routes are isolated and completely off track with almost no roads. Better stick to traditional routes in case it is the first trip to Ladakh.
3. It is better to carry them as there are no spares available though at places Army can help you out with but they also will need spares to fix minor things.
4. There is no alternate route other than to come back to Karu – Upshi and then go to Chumathang – Mahe – Tso Moriri. High chances with recent excursions that you will be sent back.
5. I love Camp Watermark only and last trip I stayed with Himalayan Wooden Cottages, which were good too. But, if you are OK with camps, I love Camp Watermark.
After the issue of latest circular by leh dc office it is not required to get permission for the hanle,pangong,tsomoriri,lyoma etc only Id cards will work am I right?? coz I am going to hanle on 18 june
Chetan, you will need permits as you are going to Hanle. Check the detailed article: Permits in Ladakh are not required for Indian Tourists from May 2014
Ok so from where I have to take permits and can I take it after reaching leh on 12 june or I have to take it before only and what are the chances of getting the permit?
For details on inner line permits process and to download application form read the link here
Please keep in mind even after you have the permits, you can still be turned off by Army Post who might not let you through the post even after permits. So, you need to take a chance.
We are looking forward to visit pangong tso – chusul – hanle – tso moriri – tso kar – leh in our trip from 29th august (srinagar) to 11th Sept (fly back from leh). can you guide us where to stay as this is our first and may be last visit to Ladakh in the above journey.
praying to god so that we get to visit there.
is there any reader who will be visiting leh around same time. two of us have booked tickets and four more may join. we are looking forward to trvael with few more people to make the whole trip more worth.
Let’s keep the discussion running on a single thread you have posted in the DwD Community: Queries on Ladakh trip 29 August – 11 Sep
I am going to ladakh on 5th of May.. We are 4 people in a group..
I want to follow this route to Tso Moriri from Pangong Tso via Chusul to Hanle. but i have heard that its almost impossible to arrange for this route. Is it so? Please advise.
Hi Radha,
Regarding Pangong Tso to Tso Moriri route or Pangong Tso to Hanle, the permits to Man – Merak – Chusul – Tsaga or remote Changthang routes are being given by DC office in Leh at ON and OFF basis, so keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best if they start issuing the permits by the time you visit or issue you on your lucky day. Also, even if the permits are given then as well there is no guarantee that you will be allowed to cross Chusul Post or not because last year several such incidents happened and people with permits also had to return via same route. All this will mean that you will have to risk it for at least a day getting wasted if you are not allowed because there will be no guarantee untill you cross Chusul and Tsaga post. Otherwise, you have to take the traditional routes only via Leh.
Regards
Dheeraj
ohhh kkkkk dhiraj
thank you very much for motivation
now i m redy to enjoy trans himalaya n i will go in mid june only lets go will see wt happen but one thing is sure now i m prepared for any situation which may come across during journy but one thing i must tell ur experience and ur comment will help us a lot during journy
thanx a lot
Hey Dheeraj…
I have actually parked my dates for DoW Mega Meet 2014 | Spiti Valley | 12 – 21 Sept – – – and here you guys are discussing about other dates in June.
So here is my question: Are these two different trips with different Itineraries – If so… Whats the trip plan in June: days, route etc…
As such – been waiting for it.. Lemme know Comrade…
Regards
MAK
MAK, brother, these are general comments in response to queries of readers. No trip planning in June for me or from DoW. There is just one Mega Meet Planned for the year and that is Spiti Valley this year and you have parked your dates correctly for it 🙂 🙂
Please mark your presence in the DoW Travel Calendar Event: https://discoverwithdheeraj.com/india/calendar.php?view=event&calEid=42
OR you can also use the Facebook Event to mark your presence: https://www.facebook.com/events/474405212660743/
Also, please post your details in community thread: https://discoverwithdheeraj.com/india/dow-travel-meets-workshops-f37/spiti-valley-dow-mega-meet-2014-t690.html
Hi dheeraj
No I m not worried that much n not afraid at all was just asking because I don’t want to stuck at any place and in addition of further snowing again and again in this time also that’s y sir I m asking u again but as u assured me den no reason to worry
Thanx sir
Sonu brother, first no sir 🙂 🙂 … I am too young for it 😉 😉 … Now, what I am trying to say is that you are going for an adventure drive, so just don’t make much expectations of what will happen or what will not, just drive and live out the adventure !! You try to make a plan and then try to follow it as much as possible and be open for anything and everything in trans-Himalayas 🙂
hi dheeraj
thnax for posting such memorable experience
again i have one question sir
first u went der sep. month and still i can find some snow n water crossing in ur pics
as we r going in mid june 2014 by self drive so sir what would b the weather condition can we manage drive ????? or we should postpone out trip in july last week or august 1st week
please sir guide us as we r worried because of current weather in ladakh as its around mid march n still haevy snow fall
thanx
Hi Sonu,
Most welcome, There will always be snow and water crossings somewhere or other in these High Himalayas 🙂 🙂 … You cannot avoid Water Crossings at all. Lakhs pf people drive every year to Ladakh in the season and you are doing in season only, so better you go in June as July – August means monsoons in lower hills which will prove slushy and difficult to drive in Rohtang Pass and zojila Pass.
Snow is usual brother in Ladakh and it will snow even in June at high mountain passes in some days 😀 … You are going for adventure, if you are that worried I will suggest to opt for some other location in lower hills or fly-in and enjoy the beauty sitting behind in a private taxi.
Regards
Dheeraj
Fantastic route I have been on this route on bike last year – 2013
Yes, Col, this is one amazing route via Chusul to Hanle – Tso Moriri from Pangong Tso lake that I always remember and get dreams.